Elemental Power & Tiers

[tyris01]

I have to get this out of the way first...
Tashiji:"I agree with you, there's no reason to use Slam Bam when I can just put Stealth Elf on the portal."
^^^ This is really funny coming from the guy who been saying there's no reason to use Gill when you can just put Cynder on the portal.

Anyway... now, for Slam Bam...

He doesn't get those surf speed upgrades on land, so don't know why you're arguing it. And he DOES need them, because his slide is slower than most charges. And he can be pushed while in slide mode, and takes damage the whole way.

His main attack does not make him 'comparable to Voodood', at least, not in terms of usefulness. First off, as Voodood has a superior range-closer, Voodood also has a ranged attack defense, a way of setting 'traps' for the foe, and his combo has a useful alternate that gives him a respectable ranged attack (unlike Slam, who has no useful alternates despite paying for them). Sure, it takes awhile to build, but it's there, and IF he gets in melee and IF the foe escapes, he can shove his axe-blade straight up their colon as they run away. Slam can just stop the combo and slide (note Voodood can do the same, but Grapple). That's a fairly major difference, and it doesn't even get into the others.

Second, Voodood has better offense as his Grapple actually does damage (unlike Ice Shoe) and can interrupt the enemy attack (plus, you move a crapton faster). Slam has more HP, but defensively, he's going to have issues with ranged attackers that Voodood isn't as bothered about.

Unfortunately, none of that does anything except put Slam on the bottom of the melee pile. Now, if you want to argue that whole pile is better than Gill, go for it, but lets make it clear that's what you're trying since Slam is the worst of their kind. What you're saying is that a certain Archetype, that of the slow heavy-melee bruiser, is superior in combat to the low-HP ranged-only Archetype. And it's fine if you want to say that, but...sadly... Slam doesn't get results compared to the others, and is only guaranteed going to win against whatever Paper Archetype the rest of his own are Scissors against anyway. Scissors beats Paper? Who knew. You know what, let's throw Zap into the mix. Guess what? Zap, the lowest of the entire pile, trumps Slam Bam. Every single time. So, he must be the true Water Champion, right? But.. Gill Grunt consistantly beats Zap. So which one is the true champion here? (Note: Zap, despite being on the bottom of the pile, is actually able to poke holes in most of the melee Archetype. Why? Because it's what he's designed to do. Against anything else, he's a chump.)

As for your arguments of Cynder, Drobot, and Stealth Elf... duh! That's why I put them in the "Broken Tier". They do, in fact, make every single other Skylander redundant. That's why it's the Broken Tier! But my point wasn't that. My point is that Voodood, Stump Smash, Terrafin and the like are all better than Slam, for different reasons, but they all share it because of superior combos from the main attack, a superior range-closer, and a superior alternate move. You show me where that applies to guys who are like Gill (which you can't, apparently, as you think Cynder is the same) and maybe you'll have a case.

Until then, you keep comparing my example of a good Water type to a single broken toon, and I'm going to keep pointing out how yours is inferior to a heap of non-broken ones. Just don't expect to convince me to see your view as valid if you keep ignoring this fact.

Drill Sgt serves a great purpose. Go play him on PS3. He's actually really, really good despite inferior damage. He plays like he belongs in another game, like Star Control or something. But...he also pops Slam Bam with only a marginal amount of skill required. He has issues against Gill, though. But that's part of that 'metagame' you were mentioning. The Wii version of Drill is junk, so if you're comparing it to that, well, more power to you.

Slam Bam is a bad design, bad implementation, and on the whole a rather large disappointment. Even if he's better in some ways that Gill, that's because of his Archetype, not due to something special about his design. Gill fulfills an interesting role not shared by most ranged attackers--he's designed to kill them by beating them at their own game, rather than being Scissors to their Paper. You may say Slam's the best 'Water Champion' but... no. I just don't see it. Besides, we need Wham Shell to make an accurate assessment there.

Honestly, I'd like Slam Bam to be worth putting on the portal. But with at least three non-broken alternates, I don't see it being worth it aside from 'coolness' factor. If I was the game designers, I'd have tried to make that freeze move useful. Like... I dunno, make it into a PBAoE that immobilizes the foe instead of freezing them. Or a charge up that puts an ice patch on the ground that lasts longer the more you charged it. And, in addition, make his slide do damage or shield him from the front. Something to make him unique. But... I can say this about a lot of Skylanders.

[Tashiji]

A lot of our argument seems to stem from the fact that we can't test any of these findings for ourselves in any practical manner, or as a community. With close calls like Cynder builds, I don't believe it's possible to say what's more effective and what isn't, because we have no way to test. Local fights have severe limitations in assessing overall strength, and as informed as we'd like to say we are, we continue to argue conjecture here.

I agree about Drill Sergeant. I've advocated for him numerous times here and on other forums. He's a good character. In my estimation, he's Drobot's silver medal. However, the same arguments that render Slam Bam useless when Stealth Elf is playable somewhat apply to Drill Sergeant and (X charging character who's better). My comment is in no way a slight to Drill Sergeant; rather, it's an example of how even a very useful character can seem redundant if all we're doing is debating who's the absolute best and excluding everyone else from the portal. Drill Sergeant has a place. He's absolutely in the same tier as Gill Grunt, if not perhaps a little higher. However, what's the point of using him at all when I can just set Drobot on the portal? His use, despite his relative strength, is as much a matter of personal preference as Slam Bam, even if he is a more well-developed character.

I also agree that the archetype is why Slam Bam fares well. We play a game with a regrettably simple battle system, that happens to afford piles of wins to charging melees who can get close quickly. Since Slam Bam is one of those, it doesn't matter if he's generic--it just works out. I absolutely hope that Wham Shell is the pre-eminent Water character once he's released. I'd like it if the ultimate representative of that element could display some sort of nuance, and it bothers me that Gill, despite his multifaceted and complex playstyle, is in many ways less effective than simply running in and pounding opponents with the starting combo. It's not how I'd like it, it's just how it is.

My argument isn't that Slam Bam is awesome, and it never has been. I'm quick to state his redundancy. The point I'm trying to make is that, due to the game mechanics, just being that type of melee character at all gives you a big advantage to most characters in the game, and regardless of whether or not he compares favorably to the best of the best melees, he is still a character that will win loads of PVP matches over most of the field. He was disappointing for me, too. I was hoping to actually add a Water character to my main roster, but honestly, there's no reason not to just double up on Earth instead if you're doing team battles, and no reason to pick a Water character at all for singles fights in the top tier.

Edit:

It's not about who beats who, it's the overall number of strengths relative to all characters in the game that dictate power rankings. It doesn't matter if Zap beats Slam Bam or if Slam Bam beats Gill Grunt. That's just one win against one character on the whole roster. What matters is who, against the field, racks up the most overall wins. If Gill Grunt is strong to 60% of the characters in the game and Slam Bam is strong to 75%, then Slam Bam is the dominant Water character, because he wins more. Winning percentage is why we have the broken tier we do.

Truly, there is no reason to put Gill Grunt on the portal when you have access to Cynder. Regardless of whether that means she's broken or he's inferior is a matter of perspective. Skylanders is not a balanced game, and because it's not balanced, a lot of characters that we like can technically be considered useless.

You're making a simple game more complex than it has to be. Perhaps Giants, or subsequent sequels, will have a PVP mode where the vast majority of characters aren't irrelevant, but that is not the case with the version we have right now. Slam Bam may be bland, but blandness doesn't make him objectively worse than a more complex character who is equally marginalized by superior options.

[tyris01]

I can agree about the 'not being able to test it decisively' part. I disagree that the Cynder build is such a close call on a non-PS3 system, though. It primarily is an issue there because one of the key features of the other path does not work.

Drill Sgt is not a Drobot. He's not his Silver Medal. You are, again, comparing characters that are different Archetypes. Drobot is the ranged Archetype, cranked up to 11, to the point of breaking the game. Drill Sgt is not a ranged character, he's a mixed character. His ranged damage doesn't compare to any pure ranged guy in the entire game. He has to be up close to use his blasters, and he has a charge move despite lacking (useful) melee moves (obviously the Drill Stab doesn't count, cause you should never have to use it). Even his decent, tracking ranged attacks have the flaw of being only able to have 2 on the screen at once. Just like Cynder is not a souped-up Gill Grunt. If anything, Drobot is more of a souped-up Gill Grunt than she is, because their Archetypes are closer.

The Broken Tier is broken for a reason. If you use it VS most non-broken, you win. If you use it versus another, if they are different, the winner is usually determined by the one that trumps the other. I'm not denying this. But, again, you continue to say I'm comparing one guy to a broken the same as you. I'm comparing one guy to a host of others who do his job better. Gill's only closest analog IS one of the broken, he's unlike anything else in the game. Please, show me another ranged guy who can spam high damage up close, decent damage at extreme range, and has a tightly-controllable movement rate that also gives lateral motion. There simply isn't one. Each of his moves have a place and purpose unique to his setup. Yet Slam, Stump, Voodood, Terrafin, etc, are all cut from the same cloth. Standard melee attack, range closer (though in Stump's case its an enemy slow), third attack of arguable usefulness.

I view Gill as superior in water not because his Archetype is more commonly useful, but that he brings more usefulness to the table in ways that no other Element has.. Water has Slam Bam, and almost every other element has an analog of him that's better. Most elements are afflicted with that setup (except perhaps Fire, which has the most diverse guys). If you're forced to pick one from each type, excluding the Broken Tier, are you going to go for an inferior melee like Slam Bam or a unique one like Gill to cover the holes left by the other, superior melee guys (honestly, Stump does his job, and as of now without Stealth Elf, that's all life HAS)?

Also, I didn't compare Slam to the 'best of the best'. Compared to him, ALL the others are 'best of the best'. He's the worst of that design. I guess if you're saying one guy out of a group is on the bottom then the rest must be the 'best of the best' you can technically be correct, but that's pretty darn shifty.

I never said that Gill should be higher on the rankings than Slam. But so far you've said Slam is in the top tier. Which, really, he's not, not at all. He's in about the same Tier as Grunt, slightly higher on the list. But that doesn't mean he's the "Water Champion" unless by saying that you mean he's slightly higher on the solo list than him. Which brings me to two points.

1) You keep comparing Gill to Cynder, and saying I compared Slam to one or two melee guys. This is false equivalency. I compared Slam to all the other melee guys in his Archetype, and purposefully exclude the Broken one (as, you know, I have more examples than you in that Archetype). This is some shenanigans on your part. For the record, you can say Cynder is better on the portal than Gill, but you know what? All 3 of the Broken are, and they're better than Slam too. So you'd better find a new line of argument there. But, that brings me to something I apparently have been misleading on, which is...

2) We have a different definition of "Elemental Champion" apparently. In your case, it's the "whichever guy is highest on the solo list of that particular element". I guess that makes sense, if you're doing it the fastest way, or only care about solo fights. And I can see how I disagree with that, since in my case, it may just be how we battle. We pick one of each element. I would never, with good conscience, ever pick Slam Bam for water. He's just not good enough. Sure, his Archetype beats Gill, but you know what? I'm going to be needing something other than "Brawler" from an element that has the worst one. Which is why I go for Gill every time. To me, that's the defintion of the "Elemental Champion" of that element. As Stealth is broken, I always have at least one brawler in the form of Stump Smash, and I usually go with Terrafin or Dino-Rang for Earth ,and about half the time Voodood for magic (when I'm not pwning with Double Trouble). At that point, I'm pretty good on Brawlers, thanks, I don't need another sub-par one to get smushed when I encounter his opposite.

So, yeah, I think part of our disagreement has to do with those definitions. But that still doesn't explain your Gill Grunt hate or why you keep comparing him to Cynder and then tell me that the Broken tier doesn't matter since they replace everyone anyway.