Elemental Power & Tiers

[thierrytng]

When making a tier system, have you taken into account that Elemental Power becomes an important factor when all Skylanders are maxed out? With 1% additional damage per point, it can make a major difference between high levelled and low levelled games.

For example, let's say someone only has the three Starter Skylanders. Trigger Happy will get a small boost versus Spyro of 25% damage. A normal shot of 10 damage would then deal 12.5 damage. Not a big thing right?

Well, let's assume now that all Skylanders are unlocked. With all the Heroics done, Trigger Happy will not only get a 100% damage boost. but he's got a much higher chance for a critical hit (+50% damage) as well. Suddenly, that little coin bullet might deal a critical hit (15 damage) which then gets doubled to 30 damage!

Such a thing will greatly affect the tiering system. Where in a weak game Spyro might stand a fair chance against Trigger Happy, in a high end game he will get knocked out of the arena with tail full of coins. Is that something to consider when making tiers?

[Tashiji]

All of my play-testing is done with characters who have fully completed Heroic Challenges. I agree that these make a massive difference in the outcome of many battles. However, certain characters are strong enough to overcome their elemental disadvantages, and if anything, that's what determines top-tier presence.

For example; Trigger Happy might have a type advantage to Voodood, but Voodood will still win that battle nine times out of ten because he's a stronger character. Other characters, like Cynder, exist completely outside of their elemental confines. Good luck defeating Cynder with any of the Magic champions at all, because in my experience, it's not going to happen. Stealth Elf poses similar problems for Undead champions, as even Cynder is not a sure thing, and the other three are fodder.

I fully agree with you that elemental power is a major factor. It determines a lot in terms of tiers, and any character worthy of being called top-tier has to overcome at least 3/4 of the characters they're allegedly weak to. I would say that Heroic Challenges in general are a greater factor than anything, though, and findings done without them fully complete are somewhat inaccurate in the grand scheme of things.

[Yaggleberry Finn]

When it comes to elemental advantages, overall I feel like I need to keep that out of the equation when ranking the characters. That's because every type beats something. So yes, there are certain instances where a character might be able to silver bullet a figure in a higher tier, but otherwise they don't belong up there with the others. I don't know whether or not Double Trouble can beat Hex, but even if he can, he'd have to be able to go toe-to-toe with the rest of the Kaos group before I would consider him worthy of bumping up from the Spell Punk tier. (Only recently got DT and haven't had much playtest time recently.)

However, the elemental advantage can cause a few really lopsided matchups within the same tier. I just don't see how Stealth Elf could ever lose to Slam Bam, given optimal path choices and similarly skilled players. But Slam Bam holds his own against the rest of the tier. I suppose that means some characters in a given tier will be more highly ranked simply because whatever type takes advantage of their weakness isn't even present. Case in point: the Undead class, which has two Kaos characters but will never face a Magic type in a Kaos matchup.

I guess that makes Hex and Cynder a little more valuable. We'll also see if Warnado or Lightning Rod make it to Kaos level, otherwise the Earth class also has no threat of a weakness either. Would that make Earth the best, since it also has an advantage against Drobot?

[thierrytng]

Jan 29, 2012 15:19:38 GMT -6 Yaggleberry Finn said:

When it comes to elemental advantages, overall I feel like I need to keep that out of the equation when ranking the characters.

I understand that, but I'm not sure I agree. Elemental Power is VERY powerful, maybe for the exact same reason you're making tiers...to balance things out. It's powerful enough that some players simply won't play duels where Elemental Power would be a factor.

When looking at the Wii tiers for example, you have Prism Break in the second one. However, at maximum Elemental Power, I've little doubt that he could beat Drobot in a shoot-off. That may be enough to move him a tier higher, since he's suddenly a lot more useful than he would be at 25 EP.

It's just a thought to take into account. Like I said, I understand that you don't want to take it into account because it's easier to determine the tiers. However, I get the feeling that you cannot dismiss EP without affecting the tiers.

[Tashiji]

Prism Break definitely does beat Drobot more often than not, you're right. However, despite his considerable PVP prowess, the way the top tier looks right now is somewhat prohibitive of a character like Prism Break. Reason being, it's composed of a lot of melee characters, against which he suffers. Bash, Terrafin, Stealth Elf, and Slam Bam are likely to defeat the golem by charging in through his defenses, and while he does defeat Drobot and Hex with ease, and Dino Rang with some difficulty, he also loses to Cynder.

I do agree that Prism Break is borderline, though, and a lot stronger than most characters in the Spell Punk division. It's hard to tell where he should really end up. He's too strong for where he is, but ever-so-slightly too weak for where he wants to be. Perhaps the release of subsequent waves will clear his position up a bit. As it stands, I think he can be played appropriately in both of the top two divisions, but I really can't place him.

[thierrytng]

To be fair, I mostly meant it as an example, not as a true debate on his prowess. My main point was that for example, when taking the hypothetical case of a top tier that consisted out of all Life element Skylanders, an Undead type would suddenly be ranked a lot higher when Elemental Power IS taken into account.

With the Prism Break example, I kinda meant to say that the ranking of Prism Break would be directly coupled to how high the Tech Skylanders are ranked. If all of them'd be top tier, he'd suddenly be a viable counter to bring in PvP.

All in all, I'm mostly pondering wheter Elemental Power could be dismissed so easily. If it could be, it'd sure make the discussion a lot easier...but I'm not 100% sure it can be.

[tyris01]

This must be a Wii thing or something.

How does Prism Break, especially a Crystaleer, ever really kill a skilled Drobot player... unless it's a tiny map like Volcanic Vault/Aqueduct? The Drobot has a hellacious speed advantage thanks to AB, and if he's master blaster, he's going to tear through those little dropped crystals like tissue paper. He doesn't have to just sit there and hold the attack button (as that will likely get him killed). Played hit-and-run, the Prism really can't do much. Unless he does some hellacious damage on the Wii and gets lucky. I do PS3, so maybe it's a system difference or something, but I'm not seeing the reason for the Prism love.

Spyro VS Trig? If that's a Golden Gun Trig, unless it's on one of those itty-bitty maps, Spyro's going to catch a 240-base-damage (not counting EP!) Golden Yamato Blast before he ever gets in range to hit Trigs, since the Yamato also goes through thin walls and ledges. That's going to be over 400 damage of pure annihilation power, then he has to wade through coins. Bad, bad news there.

Keep playing Double Trouble and level him, Yaggle. He's a beast. I prefer the Channeler, who's triple-magic-bomb doing 65 damage per tick with great pushback can really ruin peeps day. The beam does guaranteed damage too, and any time you're not using either move (like just getting closer) you can be making Clones with no slowdown.

Cynder might not be a sure thing for Stealth Elf, but it's pretty close. Stealth can't reliably catch her, and Cynder's multiple damaging slow-inducing ghosts will chip her to death. That Shadow Charge is even faster and farther range than her Ninja Flip too (again, PS3, Wii version might be better... I know her flip is stupidly short ranged on the 360 for some odd reason). I consider myself a decent player, and play against a guy who's almost as skilled as I am, but whichever of us has the Cynder will almost always win in that setup.

Just wondering if the experience here is the same, if everyone does this on the Wii.

[Tashiji]

Yes, the Drobot thing is a Wii thing. Afterburners are interrupted by almost anything on the Wii, whereas Drobot can cruise on PS360.

[tyris01]

That's crazy... add that to the list of guys who are going to get hosed in Giants, I suppose.

In the PS3 version, it takes some high damage hits to try and knock him out of flight mode. And with AB's it's MUCH faster than the flight of any other Skylander with the ability. The only drawback is you have about two or three times the turning radius of any other flyer (meaning it takes like half the screen's space just to turn around). With practice, though, you can drop out of flight, hit the other direction, immediately hit Flight again, and you'll have turned 180 degrees in slighly under a second.

I wonder if these system differences are why you had such a hatred of Gill Grunt. Maybe he's just... terrible on the Wii?

[Tashiji]

I've played him on both versions, and I don't hate him, I just can't say in good conscience that he's comparable to Slam Bam, even though Slam Bam is a generic melee. He's a strong, middle-of-the-road Skylander, I can't deny that, but he doesn't really stand a chance against the game's best. I understand the love for Gill Grunt, he's fun and very versatile. The problem is, I can't in good conscience put him in the discussion of who's in the top tier, which a lot of people really seem to want to do. So, it's more a general overestimation of his strength that bugs me, not the character himself.

[tyris01]

You're right, they aren't comparable. One's a 'standard' melee toon, the other is a tricksy ranged toon. Slam Bam and Gill Grunt are nothing alike. I was just amused previously (on GameFaqs) by your odd urge to compare him to another toon that played nothing like him at all--specifically Cynder, and thus declare him inferior... despite claiming Slam Bam was still better because than he despite being replaced by Stealth Elf.

But, as far as I can see, there is nothing that plays remotely like Gill Grunt, the closest equivalent would be Drobot, and even than is a stretch. Slam Bam, however, plays like every other 'standard' melee toon (Voodood, Stump Smash, Terrafin, Stealth Elf, and the like), and is superior to none of them. Mostly because his non-melee moves suck. The Ice Block requires you to hold the button down and not move, while also following ground contours. The slide is neat, but does no damage, and is slower than most 'charge' moves. His 'side' melee combos either have a huge wind-up time that's interruptible (Hammer) or are the generic sliding-AoE meant for PvE situations. All the others listed above have a trick... Voodood has his grapple (and plantable bombs, which cause the enemy to think twice before going there), Stump Smash has his slowing acorns that he can fire while walking and that bounce around, Terrfain has his ability to burrow and fire off seeking ankle-biters while immune, and Stealth Elf has her flip, stealth, and crazy DPS. Slam Bam is just... bad.

Now, is Gill Grunt all that great? No, he's a 'high middle' kind of guy. If there's two tiers, he's in the top one. If three, he's in the middle. If four, second from the top. (All these examples exclude the 'broken' tier.) But he's a darn sight more useful than Slam.

[Tashiji]

Nether Welder Cynder plays a lot like Gill Grunt, actually. A character predicated on keep-away tactics who uses cone-shaped AoE to do damage. That's really, very similar, except that Cynder's cone is way wider, longer, and easier to catch people in, and her keep-away is faster and, well, better. I know that you prefer Shadowdancer, in which case, yes, there is a big difference; however, my preference is Nether Welder, and cone-shaped attacks are her forte.

As for Slam Bam, I do disagree, but this may come down to choice of build. Glacier Yeti is dreadful. Horrid melee damage, unwieldy special attack that is easily dodged by anyone who cares to try, and yes, he fails to keep pace with every character listed. Blizzard Brawler is a different story. His surf attack gets him close quickly, and then he pounds away with combo attacks. There's nothing glamorous about it, there's no finesse, you're just speeding in and whacking the enemy in the face with a character who has great defensive stats and does above-average damage. He's not the most original character, and he's not the best, but the way the mechanics of the game work allows him to accumulate quite a lot of wins just by running in and pounding things. He travels fast, and hits decently hard. To beat 75% of the characters in the game, that's all that's necessary. It brings me no great joy to call that the best Water champion in the game, but I've yet to have a single PVP tournament or testing session indicate otherwise. Can he beat Stealth Elf? No. That's silly. But he isn't a lost cause against the other top-tier characters the way Gill Grunt is.

I absolutely agree with where you would place Gill, and he's nice there. Does he have any place in the overall top five of the game? No, but a lot of people like to put him there anyway.

[tyris01]

Actually, she doesn't play like Gill, not at all. And Gill doesn't have a cone, his water attack is a line. Unless you spin it, which case it's an arc, but you probably shouldn't be doing that since you should be in backpack mode. Also, he can snipe with his harpoons, something she simply doesn't have. And he has the spammable starfish, which offers up a nice risk-vs-reward choice for loads of extra damage but possibly letting them get close to kill you as you are not running away when needed (on the PS3 at any rate, you can spam em as fast as Trigger Hasppy coins, and they do 20 per hit). He can do just fine in the upper tiers, though not as well as those who belong there.
In addition, her 'dodge' is her attack, and she can use it to strangle the life out of pursuers. He can't do that. Her flight is rather pointless, and her AoE cone, while someone similar to his water line, cannot be fired except when stationary or approaching the target. In addition, she can arc hers, which ruins any chance of considering them similar.
They play and work nothing alike. Gill's defensive moves are his defensive ones, his offensive are offensive, and you have to learn when to switch between the two. Cynder's defensive move is ALSO her main offensive move, and you use it 80% of the time.

Your love of Slam Bam must be a Wii thing. On the PS3, he's terrible. I mean, he's as good as the melee bracket is against most things, so he's not useless, but... that big rant you did against Glacier Yeti? I was talking about Blizzard Brawler. Please address those issues. And if every other primary melee guy does it better, why use him? Unlike Cynder VS Gill, this is a direct comparison with the other guys who do the exact same thing he does, the only difference is the method by which each closes range. Except better. He has a bit more damage than some of them, but makes up for it by having useless moves. His ground surf doesn't get upgraded, only his water one. His Soul Gem is another of those 'useless' water-related ones the programmers lacked creativity for. His upgraded finishers are both inferior to the basic one. I think the only beneficial difference is his extra Armor. And that's just not enough.

[Tashiji]

Gill's hose is only a line if you don't factor in the sealife, which do make it cone-shaped. Limited, but cone-shaped. He shoots cone-shaped AoE, and runs away when approached, which really is a lot like Cynder. Yes, there are subtle nuances between the two, such as the harpoons you mentioned, but there are subtle nuances between Stealth Elf's melee and Voodood's melee that certainly don't stop the two from being classified as the same type of character. Sustainable, forward-facing AoE, regardless of if we're calling it a cone or a line, combined with keep-away tactics, on any two characters, is going to make their offensive style about as similar as it gets in this game.

With regards to Cynder's primary offense, I disagree that it's the ghosts. The ghosts are too passive to be a primary attack, and a lot of the strategy behind them is based on the assumption that your opponent is going to be chasing you. They have no reason to want to do that if not for the lightning, which forces the issue. Again, difference between builds, perhaps, but I feel that nothing brings the opponent close like engulfing half the field in lightning, and predicating my entire offense on the ghosts just isn't as practical as using them for supplementary purposes while I herd them proactively. I'm not comparing Shadowdancer to Gill Grunt here, those two are night and day. Rather, I'm saying that I prefer Nether Welder, I've had better results with Nether Welder, and that build is quite a lot like Gill Grunt in both tactics and approach.

As for Slam Bam, he doesn't need surf upgrades to get close, because even without them, he slides through most means of fending him off. I realize that his extra combo attacks are junk, but his main one is fine, and easily makes him comparable to Voodood in overall use. The only difference is he sacrifices a chunk of offense for a chunk of defense. Aside from that, the two are startlingly similar in terms of approach and overall use. Regardless of the fact that Voodood has more useful moves and better combo attacks, he's not a defensively strong character compared to Slam Bam, who has tons of HP and an armor upgrade. You're correct in saying that the sum of Slam Bam is a generic melee with good defensive stats who spams his starting combo. The only thing I disagree with is the fact that it gets results. You can chalk that up to an extremely limited to nonexistent metagame, but beefy stats and one combo will take him far... further than Gill Grunt.

Slam Bam is redundant, I've stated that on many occasions and I do agree with you. However, redundancy in Skylanders is not at all localized to Slam Bam. What's the point of any ranged character when you can just pick Drobot, for example? Say what you will about the individual merits of the other ranged characters, but let's be realistic here, Drobot makes them obsolete. Stealth Elf does the same to melee, Cynder does the same to AoE, and if we're only going by which characters actually have a unique purpose that they're the best at, there are only perhaps five or six characters that there's any reason to use in the entire game. Not even one for each element. So, yes, I agree with you, there's no reason to use Slam Bam when I can just put Stealth Elf on the portal. In fact, that's the exact reason I don't use Slam Bam. However, if we're going to account for any personal preference at all in this game and not just outright deem Cynder, Steatlh Elf, Drobot, and thoroughly unique characters like Ignitor the only ones with any reason to be played, then we've got to consider Slam Bam on his individual merits the same way we would for, say, Drill Sergeant, who also technically serves no purpose.

It pains me to say that Slam Bam and his one combo/generic surf attack is the best Water champion, but again, I've seen nothing to indicate otherwise. Gill Grunt is a more well-designed character, but really, he, too, is obsolete in the grand scheme of things.

[tyris01]

The sealife have a random drift at the very edge of their range. That does not make them a cone, on account of it being random and a slight drift. Her lightning is always a cone, to either side, and she trades her mobility for it, which Gill does not. Still not alike.

Harpoons are not a 'subtle nuance'. They have an extreme range and this allows him to snipe foes he normally can't fight straight-up. They are entirely a different style of attack. Cynder has limited range, Gill does not.

Likewise, you say Stealth and Voodoo's melee are subtle in differentiation. They are not. Her BASIC melee and his is, but her Cloud of Knives is a completely seperate set of attacks he lacks, which is why she dominates melee. She's effectively getting two hits for one attack, and the BASE hit is the damage of most melee toons. The reason I lump them into the same pile is her basic attack, her use of a distance closer (Flip is somewhat analogous to his Grapple), and then a third move that differentiates them. They are far closer in comparison. If, say, she had a SNIPE attack, or a teleport, or even a charge-up range attack, they'd be quite different. (Incidentally, Gill gets the first and third where Cynder lacks them completely.) However, all this is immaterial as I have already argued this point and you are agreeing to it.

If Cynder's primary offense is not the CHARGE (note I said the Dash is it... the Dash which does damage AND drops ghosts which damage AND slow the foe... Gill has nothing like this, no matter how much you want to insist they play the same), what the hell is it? Lightning? Pssh. That sees far less use, as I listed above, than the Dash. Also, no, MY strategy with her isn't that the foe will be chasing me but that I will be charging through the foe and stacking ghosts on them BEFORE running. Then they can either eat chip damage and wait while I set up for lightning, or they can chase and get more ghost hits. The Dash entirely defines her style, not her ranged attack. It's the bonus for situations where the Dash is not preferable or for setting up the foe to throw themselves into a bad situation. What enemy are you 'herding' in PvP anyway? Sonic Boom and her pets? The lightning forces the issue, but you're missing the bit about giving them TWO bad choices, instead of one, and reacting accordingly.

Even given you use the less-effective Nether Wielder, their playstyles are still not the same. You have to maneuver to face the opponent, then either turn to Dash away or Dash through your foe to run. The former makes you a 'generic' ranged guy (Gill isn't, thanks to the backpack), the latter makes you some sort of weird ranged/melee Hybrid "Jouster". Which is even farther from Gill. Gill can maneuver while still facing the opponent, and he can snipe from half a battlefield away. He dodges in a smooth fashion and can dodge laterally, which she can't. She has an advantage avoiding melee toons, which he lacks, while he has an advantage against Ranged, which she lacks.

The more examples you give, the more you are proving how dis-similar they are.